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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 13:49 
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Does anyone have a copy of this book that Randy mentions that i may borrow?

I promise to look after it.

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 14:03 
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I don't have a copy of this book, but a quick internet showed that it is available through both www.ididj.com.au and www.ards.com.au

I'll keep a look out to see if I come across this on any of the used book sites.


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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 14:42 
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Loretta wrote:
To accept money in exchange for a sacred item is to replace the power of Nature manifested within the sacred with the power of those who control the value of the money, therefore destroying the true power within the sacred.


So continuing our conversation Loretta ... :-)

Basically, Loretta, before I dig into the underlying metaphysics, let me just say that you are right. Money, as it is used today, destroys the Sacred. But that is not an absolute, it is just the way it is because of how people abuse it. Here’s why.

The problem is not money itself but how complex our culture has gotten, necessitating among other things the evolution from a barter system in which ceremonial exchanges remain sacred to a system requiring symbolic exchanges, i.e., money, in which we can easily forget how sacred the exchange once was.

In a simpler society, you can exchange a nice bowl you made with me for a didg. if I don't need your bowl, but I need a pair of shoes, you can go to the shoemaker and if he needs a bowl you can trade for his shoes and exchange them with me for a didg. But what happens in a more complex society, how do we keep track of a more complex series of exchanges in order to translate the energy of your time, skill and talent, a bowl, into a didg? We use a "medium of exchange." It isn't bad, unless you think that a more complex society is bad, but it does complicate things...and opens the door for the energy of the exchange to be forgotten as money becomes objectified and desired for its own sake. But there is still the opportunity for individuals to remember and honor the natural order and use money wisely.

To make matters worse, however, the "system" objectifies money even more and tries to control its value, further removing it from its original natural, sacred origin. Instead of making sacred exchanges of energy, in a natural flow, this system corrupts the flow and idealizes "ownership" in which we constrict the flow and hold onto the energy.

Wait, it gets even worse. All modern money systems are “fiat” systems, in which money actually has NO value at all except what the "masters" say it has. That's why they created Federal Reserve Notes in the US to replace Silver Certificates or, earlier, Gold Certificates, and earlier yet, gold itself. In fact, fiat money is not even real money at all - it is a form of debt. Since it has no intrinsic value, it is like saying in a simpler society that hey, I need a pair of shoes but don't have anything to give you at all...so here is a piece of paper in which I promise to give you a bowl some time in the future. I have a "promissory note" that says you now owe me a bowl. That's why they are called Federal Reserve NOTES! Reall money used to be called GOLD or later, gold and silver certificates.

This system encourages debt this at every opportunity. It is the essence of EVIL because it steals our time and energy and gives nothing back. It represents no exchange at all in a sacred sense. So yes, Loretta, in a way, all money, as it exists today for the most part, destroys the Sacred. BUT intent is still more powerful than any absolute. One can still use this negative energy as a positive, use it to empower instead of abuse. We can't all just return to nature and live off the land. But we can live in a sacred way wherever we are. That is perhaps one of the vital lessons that indigenous people have for us, to remind us of what is Sacred, what is important and how to live in balance with Nature, even in London, New York or Miami. For me, the didg is just such a Sacred tool because it brings the Sacred back into our lives wherever we are.

It was very sacred, in my belief, for me to receive my first agave didgeridoo as a gift. It changed my life. Recently I asked the universe, or Nature, to guide me to a new traditional euc. Needless to say, I never expected someone to just walk up to me and in a Sacred way gift me with a new didg. Would’ve been nice, but if I really felt guided to have a new trad euc, I would have to be a bit more proactive. Of course, I was somewhat idealizing this process. But I was guided at the time that way and didn't think about it. In hindsight I can see that in order to make this a Sacred exchange of energy rather than just a commercial purchase I had to do it this way, at least it worked that way for me.

I wrote to Randy about it and several other people. I even prayed about it. One day I got an email from Ben Hicks. He really resonated with me on this. When I called him he had intuitively tuned into the perfect didg for me. He sent me a photo and played it on the phone for me and I knew he was right. My Burrngupurrngu is now my teacher in many ways. So the exchange clearly was Sacred. It didn't even feel like a transaction - it felt like receiving a gift from Ben (even though the Burrngupurrngu was considerably more expensive than I planned). I now feel I am the custodian of this work of art, not the "owner."
Image

So INTENT as you no doubt already know, is the source of all Magick. A spell has little to do with the words, right. Anyone can say the words, but it doesn't make it a Spell, does it? Without proper training of the will or intent, the words are without power. We give money and the "system" its power by giving it our power. We allow them to steal our power by being so willing to buy (pun intended) into the system that replaces living in harmony with Nature and the Sacred with owning stuff. But that happens only because we let it...not because of an absolute metaphysical rule about money. In fact, REAL money (silver and gold) can be used in metal Magick to purify negative energy and many other spells!

Though in a de facto sense you are right, fiat, debt-based money does destroy the sacred - it is because people let it. We gave the system our power willingly. Jefferson said we would need a revolution in America every 20 years if we want to keep this country a Republic. Instead of taking on that responsibility, we succumbed to what is always easier and more convenient - let the politicians do it for us. We would rather live in a corrupt system than take responsibility for fighting corruption. THAT is what is destroying Natural power. Not the symbols of power. Saying that money is the culprit is giving the symbol power.

We will all be more powerful if we stop feeling like victims of the system, and its symbols and stop giving away our power. Victims have no power. We can take responsibility for bringing our own culture more into balance with nature and the Sacred again when we take responsibility for our own actions, and the intent behind them.

Exchanging our time, energy and Goddess given talents for money is not intrinsically evil or a destruction of the Sacred. At least, it doesn’t have to be. Offering out of the goodness of our hearts to help people in need, even with "money" can be Sacred. We all can reach out to our communities and neighbors with our didgeridoos to inspire a return to what is truly Sacred wherever we are. THAT is Intent. That is power. That is Sacred.

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Last edited by rawfoodguy on 22.05.2006, 18:11, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 17:54 
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Robert

As Richard said above, that was between Randy and myself and everyone else should stay out of it.

The issue has been resolved as far as i'm concerned, and hopefully as far as Randy is concerned as well. Why you now have to post the above crap about coercion, stiring it all up again, is quite beyond me. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with you.

So don't expect me to respond while all that crap is in your post.

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 18:07 
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Loretta wrote:
As Richard said above, that was between Randy and myself and everyone else should stay out of it..


Your right. Sorry. I was thinking about the conversation regarding intent and money, and the loss of Sacredness, in more general terms, for which what is or is not negative is a matter of intent, how money is used, how we relate to the didg, all of it. Obviously I seem to have gotten a bit carried away - actually it was a bit of channelling so I wasn't thinking all that critically about that particular disputed element of the discussion. I'll delete that particular paragraph and anything related to it. Won't happen again.

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 20:23 
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I would like to make a general forum suggestion here.

If contributors wish to express themselves without any outside interference or have something specific or derogatory to say to someone else - which obviously needs to happen from time to time (and are not interested in open forum input ) that they just do so via a personal message. It will definitly be a bit more boring for the rest of us..................but could prove helpful.

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 21:58 
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Agreed, Chris.

And no disrespect intended to anyone, but when you post things in a publicly accessible forum like this one, you have to anticipate (and expect) that people will offer their proverbial two cents to any thread that picques their interest(or raises their hackles for that matter), including ones like this little firestorm.


Last edited by flyangler18 on 22.05.2006, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 22:02 
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Thank you Robert.

You're ideas about money sounds more Islamic than Pagan.

And i really don't think your idea of sacred and my idea of sacred are the same thing. From my point of view you seem to want things to be sacred that simply are not and by doing so you have lost sight of what is truly sacred. A musical instrument is not in anyway sacred unless it is made and used specifically for sacred ritual purposes by a person qualified to do so. Otherwise it's just a musical instrument.

And money, no matter what you do with it, or how you wish to view it, is as i have already said in my previous posts. Tying all the bells and whistles to it that you want because you want to buy and sell things and still claim sacredness does not change a thing about it. The governments own and control money and set it's value, not Nature. It's tainted with their filth and that filth destroys the sacred.

That's my view, and nothing you can say or do will change that. I would happily die of hunger before selling anything i hold as sacred to pay for a meal.

And money is not, in my opinion, an evolution of barter. Money was created by rulers because they wanted to control it's value for their own sakes and to make it easier to control and tax the exchanges of their populus and the populus themselves.

And victims do have power, which you'll realise if you care to think about it for a while.

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 22:14 
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Gentlemen, since this thread has not much to do anymore with the initial question about best fixatives for ochre colours, I'd like to movie it to the Chatter Box Section.

Any suggestions for an appropriate new title ?


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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 22:17 
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seriouschris wrote:
Any suggestions for an appropriate new title ?

No. I've got no idea where this one is leading. It may actually end up back on ochres and fixatives at some point, then you'll have to rename it again and move it back. :D

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PostPosted: 22.05.2006, 23:23 
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OK, Loretta, so be it. Then there isn't much more to say, since de facto you're right anyway. So I don't know that we need to move this discussion someplace else. It originated about art, and became about the intent of the artist or whether or not money in a transaction destroys art or something. Protecting the fragile ocre based art on a didg is perhaps a metaphor for protecting and nurturing what is Sacred. I am not sure you'd want a topic about that, since what may be sacredt about the didg is probably a subject Aboriginal people prefer to keep to themselves. We could perhaps start a thread on whether or not we are inadventently commercializing the didg or something. I don't know, but am open to ideas.

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PostPosted: 23.05.2006, 08:57 
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Location: Salt Lake City? Really? How did that happen?
Yeah, I agree with RFG that we've stated opinions and there's not much more to say. Actually, I should clarify I didn't exactly state my opinion, but just tried to characterize Yolngu opinion a bit based on my observations for those who are interested.
To put it very briefly (as this should be a whole book), there are deep sacred items that will never be for sale. Some are hidden away for future use, some are destroyed after one use. Heck, a lot of important art is done on bodies, and some of that is traditionally smudged before the person re-enters a public area of the ceremony.
Items that are for sale come from sacred origins and are extremely meaningful to those who create and observe them. But they are not sacred as in 'used in ritual.' Occasionally we have yidaki to sell that have been used in ceremony, but I don't think that makes them any more sacred than any other we have. It just means that someone here deemed it good enough to use.
Judge all that however you like, I'm just saying what's happening, right or wrong.

The Thomson book I referred to should be out there on the used book market and in university libraries. I got it on the web a few years back. I actually haven't read it in about 6 years and barely remember any details. Mainly it talks about physical objects and trade routes, but then more importantly how ritual knowledge is also valuable, and can be paid for in such physical items. Not that it's open for sale to anyone, but it is given if it is deemed appropriate for you to learn it. You only learn it if they choose to teach it to you, but you still pay for it.

A great well known example of this is from Thomson's work. He had a best Yolngu friend/informant/interpreter named Rraywala. One day Rraywala told Thomson he couldn't work with him anymore. Basically, he had gained so much knowledge from other clans through his year or two of translating for Thomson that he was going to be working the rest of his life making spears, hunting and whatnot in order to pay all those clans back!

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PostPosted: 23.05.2006, 09:36 
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Hi Randy

Current asking price on Ididj is $220 :shock: and i don't have access to a university library. I think i can wait until i can borrow a copy. If i'm meant to read it it'll turn up somewhere along the way.

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PostPosted: 23.05.2006, 10:33 
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Quote:
Current asking price on Ididj is $220


Yikes, must be a first edition or something very collectible! ARDS (Aboriginal Resource and Development Services, Inc.) has this on offer for AUD $22.00, so it looks like this might be a better place to buy a copy: http://www.ards.com.au/store.htm


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 Post subject: sealing artwork
PostPosted: 10.06.2006, 05:26 
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Back on topic:
polyurethane turns yellow with age-not good on white
varnish is inherently amber colored-so be careful with white.

DEFT-spray or brush on is crystal clear
there are many alternatives and manufacturers.Bottom line is experiment and see what works for ya.
I believe a lot of traditional sticks are clear coated with PVA which is plain old white glue.

dave


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